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How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
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Author:  zavaletas [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
I would be very interested in how members are dealing with the Lacey Act and what it may mean
for their sourcing of woods and sales of instruments?

As of 22 May 2008, if a tree is illegally harvested, made into wood products, and then exported to the US, anyone who imported, exported, transported, sold, received, acquired or purchased the wood products made from that illegal timber, who knew or should have known that the wood was illegal, may be prosecuted for violation of the Lacey Act. The defendant need not be the one who violated the foreign law; the plants or timber, and the products made from the illegal plants or timber, become ‘tainted’ even if someone else commits the foreign law violation. However, the defendant must know, or in the exercise of due care should know, about the underlying violation. Illegal plants and plant products may also be seized and forfeited whether or not the person from whom they are seized knew of the illegal nature of the product. In any prosecution or forfeiture under the Lacey Act, the burden of proof of a violation rests on the US government.

The 2008 amendments also introduce the requirement for an import declaration for plants entering the US Enforcement of this requirement will be phased in, beginning 1 April 2009, or as soon thereafter as the electronic system used to collect customs information is revised to collect the new information. The plant import declaration will require the scientific name of the plant (tree genus and species), quantity and value of the importation and name of the country where the timber was harvested. The plant import declaration does not require information on legality and does not require certification of any kind. Current information on implementation of the amended Lacey Act can be found on the USDA-APHIS webpage:
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
I am very interested as well, especially in how it will affect crossing the border with completed guitars.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
What I don't like about it is that it is totally vague about documentation requirements.

What I hate about it is that there is no mention of what I'm supposed to do about the 100+ guitars worth of wood I've collected to date. And I doubt I'll build my next consecutive 100 guitars with that so it may get spread out over 10 years or more.

What I like about it is that it's a worthy cause.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Like most "good intentions" that come from regulatory agencies, this one could cause more problems than it actually solves.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Like most "good intentions" that come from regulatory agencies, this one could cause more problems than it actually solves.
Author:  woodsworth [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
I think if it is enforceable, it is good. We should be responsible and accountable for the choices of wood we use. We know exactly how the environment and people are exploited for much more then just the wood we use. Yet we are willing to buy wood without knowing whether or not a forest and eco system was plundered, animals killed and displaced and indigenous people relocated to an area that they can no longer continue their way of life etc...

We may think the amount of wood we use is next to nothing, but it is luthier's and furniture makers that pay the most for such woods. Often the people who are cutting the trees down don't have a clue what impact they are making and those that do are simply doing it for profit.

To me it makes good business and ethical sense to be able to say that the wood used on any guitar built has been harvested ethically and fair trade practices were used. Hand made guitars are special instruments, why have that tainted by horrific acts. Why don't we use Ivory any more? Because we know better, hopefully. It's unfortunate that it takes enforcement for people to do the right thing... I think that says something in itself.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Of course we could all just switch to Carbon Fiber!
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
It's impossible to evenly enforce this type of law...so it becomes another way in which authority can be arbitrarily enforced. We don't need more authority in this world - we need more freedom.

I plan on breaking this law simply because attempting to follow it is futile. No matter how hard you try you'll never be sure of your compliance.

Don't get me started.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Todd Stock wrote:
The solution is for small shops to hire in-house counsel. I'm interviewing and hope to have one aboard soon...got him down to under $200K a year for 30 hours a week of work (he finished near the middle of his law school class). For those of you that feel that the alternative is simply to cease using any suspect materials, feel free to take on the duty of advising the rest of us on daily worldwide legal status of the materials typically used by luthiers. I suspect there is a business opportunity here.


laughing6-hehe

Maybe an economical approach would be to form a clearinghouse co-op which I volunteer to chair and each of you could send me $3000 a month....with which I pay the attorney. The lawyer and I could "screen" the wood, certify it for you, and sell it to you for a small markup.
Author:  blahblahwoofwoof [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  U.S. Woods Like Sinker Redwood.
It's going to be tough. Even with U.S. woods like sinker redwood. As it can no longer be removed from California Rivers we might need proof that it was processed before the ban.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Just wait till the Cagney act come out ,then we have the Cagney and Lacey act , gee you would think they were cops or something .
Author:  James W B [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Right on Stuart,and WHO CARES? Like I don`t have better things to do than worry about where a piece of wood comes from.This country is going to politically correct itself into oblivion.
James {SKIN}
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
bluescreek wrote:
Just wait till the Cagney act come out ,then we have the Cagney and Lacey act , gee you would think they were cops or something .


Hehe...Cagney and Lacey was in the nacent stage of political correctness. Maybe we are coming full circle. bliss
Author:  Bailey [ Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
I have a couple words that can't be posted.
I hope that old Barn beam I brought back from Wisconsin has some paperwork somewhere. Do the Mormons also keep records of wood lineage?
I'm also thinking of adding non asbestos vermiculite and hemp to my limeless concrete to make them a little lighter. My concrete guitar carrying 3 wheeler just got a recall notice...I'll need to use my old golf cart to haul it to the next show.
KB
Author:  woody b [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
Like most "good intentions" that come from regulatory agencies, this one could cause more problems than it actually solves.



If the intentions are good, and IMHO that's a big if it's just another hardship for the little guy. The big companies already have lawyers on their payroll. I can't afford a lawyer since I build 6 to 10 guitars a year.

It will be the end of my international sales. In the past I've sold and shipped guitars to Canada, Japan, and The Netherlands.

I guess I could end up in jail if I become a target.
Author:  ChrisC [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
All you guys who are worried about getting caught by this, just go thru your zoot stash and send me your questionable stuff. PM me for my address. I'll take my chances! Meanwhile, I'll be working primarily in walnut and cherry for the time being- It's what's available to me....

Chris
Author:  Robert Renick [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
I am surprised that there are no serious replies to this question. It seems that one of the organizations like GAL could hire an attorney to help with guidelines to organize an individual inventory in a defend able fashion. The obvious is to accurately document current inventory. Digital cameras have accurate dating features. I think that photographing the lumber with a quality image, and perhaps a stamped inventory number in each stick that references purchase receipts would create at least something that shows attempted compliance.

It does seem that a compliance kit created by an attorney would have value to small custom woodworking shops. Perhaps it is the importers who can help, as we can choose to use domestic products, but the importer will go out of business without the product. This is a link to woodworkingnetwork.net which has an article on compliance and a method to assure it. This may be one of those "ounce of prevention" things.
http://woodworkingnetwork.com/Tropical- ... 1&aid=1648
Rob
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Todd Stock wrote:
Wow - and from the same nation that produced Aldous Huxley and George Orwell.

The Lacey Act requires you - as the end user - and your customer to be aware of the legal status of a plant or animal with regard to harvest, processing, export, etc. in it's country of origin, and countries through which it passed (illegal transportation), as well as import status under international and US law.

In Madagascar alone, status on harvest and export of ebony and rosewood has flip-flopped several times in the past year alone. You may very well have to know the date of harvest, date of processing, date of export, date of import, and date of sale to be able to determine whether or not you violated Madagascar, Spanish, EU, international, and US law.

Also note that while elephant ivory, Brazilian rosewood, and Madagascar ebony get all the press, the broad wording of the Act would seems to generate a felony charge for you if the country of origin (or any country through which it passed) states that the material was illegally harvested, processed, exported, or transported ...which could simply be a failure to pay the usual bribe, a violation of export limits, or cutting on the wrong day of the month or without a permit for that area.

The solution is for small shops to hire in-house counsel. I'm interviewing and hope to have one aboard soon...got him down to under $200K a year for 30 hours a week of work (he finished near the middle of his law school class). For those of you that feel that the alternative is simply to cease using any suspect materials, feel free to take on the duty of advising the rest of us on daily worldwide legal status of the materials typically used by luthiers. I suspect there is a business opportunity here.


I am with Todd. This is just stupidity.

If it is hard for us to know, it is HARDER for enforcement to know. Where is the money going to come from to staff such a bloated endeavour? My guess is this will be on the books so they can pull it out and use it when they are looking to bust someone on a charge and can't find anything credible, but by and large it won't be vigorously enforced.
Author:  Robert Renick [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Oh wait. Don't answer that!

I won't.
Sorry to have ruffled feathers.
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Just one more step further in regulating every aspect of our lives. Another example of good intentions gone wrong by people that don't understand the law of unintended consequences. Thats all Ill say before I get too political.
Author:  Robert Renick [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
A little off the thread topic, but a story relevant to the intention of the Lacey act. The Lacey act may have more to do with diplomacy and foreign policy then we think.

I had a job working for a company that imported "reclaimed" lumber mostly from South East Asia. Most of what we dealt with was teak. I always had my suspicions about how the lumber was reclaimed and have no idea if it was done legally or not, and according to whose laws.

One Saturday I was working overtime as usual, and yeah, I am the sort of guy who likes a 15,000 square foot wood shop to myself. Last thing I would expect to see looking up from my work would be a tall glamorous blond with a dark skinned little boy. (Think big lonely shop miles out in the country) She purchased boats in South East Asia that contained teak, disassembled them and sold the wood. She came to our place to try and sell us her teak.

I asked her about poaching and was surprised to hear what an issue it was. Like most illegal operations, it runs deep, and not small. Poachers often use their ill begotten funds to advance political agendas, threatening those in power who want other countries to stop funding these guys with poached lumber sales. So the governments make deals with wording that pleases someone and makes no sense in a practical enforcement setting.

We did treat inventory control of teak differently then domestics though, every stick was bar coded and inventoried, if there was scrap it had to be re inventoried with a reference to the original source. It became a big enough issue that it was a full time position, one guy all day, all week making sure that material being returned from a project back to the yard kept its original sourcing information. He photoed much of the inventory as well. He did of course just need to keep track of how many board feet were in the yard, but the source of the material was tracked as well.

The Lacey act was a big thing to this company that I worked for. We actually sent lumber that was in our yard as inventory back as it was too suspect and not that great of an inventory.

I am not mentioning names as they still let me use their tools, wide belt sander, woodmizer mill, and horizontal resaw.
Rob
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
If you guys truly are interested in this stuff and how it bears on what we do....

Check out the Fresh Water Aquarium folks and the Orchid folks... Not only are they having to deal with this legal hassle... but they are trying to keep things alive while it is all going on... These guys know more than you ever wanted to know about CITES and Lacey...

The main place you can get hung out to dry is buying stuff through shady connections... I see BRW as a prime opportunity on this, as there is so much demand for this "Unobtanium"... and if it seems like it is too good to be true... it probably is.... The other instance is anywhere massively politically unstable... Madagascar, Burma, etc.

I am guessing that LMI, Stew Mac, Allied and such, along with the big hitters in the specialty hardwood lumber industry are trying pretty hard to stay aboveboard... You aren't going to get arrested for buying a Mahogany board at your local Woodcraft store....

Export can be tough, though... If I was building a guitar specifically for Export -- I would try my best to make sure I had all the Paperwork before I started the commission... You may pay more for FSC certified stock or whatever... but you also have a papertrail for getting the proper permits.

Thanks

John
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
Zach Ehley wrote:
Thats all Ill say before I get too political.


Since this directly applies to us, I don't think the usual politics rule applies. As long as it doesn't turn into a Democrats this, or Republicans, that kind of thing we should be ok.

I think legitimate conversations about policy, enforcement, etc. should be ok.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
What am I doing to prepare for the Lacey Act - Nothing! What do I plan on doing as a result of the Lacey act - Nothing!

What I am wondering and have been wondering since the inception of this thread is if the OP has any suggestions for us and also if they may in fact be an attorney? ;) Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you..... :D :)
Author:  Kelby [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How are you getting ready to comply with the Lacey Act?
This law strikes me as too vague to be enforceable. (I mean that literally -- there is a constitutional doctrine called "vagueness" which states that criminal laws must be worded clearly enough that an ordinary person will know what kind of conduct is and is not permitted.)

With that said, buy from reputable suppliers. And if some of your suppliers haven't been reputable in the past, maybe use that wood to make guitars for yourself and your family members.
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